Author Topic: Where do I look next?  (Read 6987 times)

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Offline Sandra

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Where do I look next?
« on: 15 August, 2008, 12:52:38 PM »
My g-granddad's brother Jesse Fry, was shot in the left thigh which severed his sciatic nerve. He was operated on in The London Hospital. 

Does anyone know if an incident like this would have been reported in a local paper or or been noted in a police report?

It happened on 12th November 1912. I don't know where it happened though. At the time he was aged 22, and living with his step-mother Alice Fry - nee Stepney, in 20, Beckton Road, Custom House.

I know all this by reading his WW1 pension records.

My Aunt has recently been to Stratford library for me, helped by the young lady there they looked in all the local papers of the time on microfilm, but found nothing.  My Aunt also went to Tower Hamlets local studies library in Bancroft Rd - as he was operated on in the London Hospital, just to see if their local papers had a record of the event. Again nothing.

Any ideas on where to try next?   

Basically I'm just curious as to why he was shot. Four of his brothers were rogues (3 ended up serving time in prison for various crimes) but Jesse was the 'good' boy of the bunch.  I'm just wondering if it was because of something one of his brothers did.  He was a boatman at the time of the shooting.

Sandra

Offline Peter Marshall

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #1 on: 27 September, 2008, 01:22:58 AM »
Sandra
I cannot help directly, but this may be of interest to you.

I see from the 1901 census at 20 Baxter Rd, Canning Town that Alice Fry [former surname Stepney] was born in Newbury.  If I pick it up right, she was settled in the East End for much of her life and ended up marrying Alfred Fry in West Ham towards the end of 1898 [Q Dec 4a.346].   
Jesse Fry is an uncommon name.  There were only 15 Jesse Frys in the whole of England in 1901.  It happened that one of them was a lad who got into trouble on Greenham Common [which is just outside of Newbury].  This Jesse Fry threw a stone which killed a rabbit in 1906.   Local magistrates fined him 7s.6d under the Game Laws.  The local MP raised the issue with the Prime Minister in Parliament because it seemed heavy handed. 

Given the name link and Newbury connection, was this famous [or should I say infamous?] Jesse Fry a cousin to your great grandfather in Custom House? 
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1906/dec/19/newbury-conviction-under-the-game-laws
Peter
Researching: Marshall [28 Carson Rd, 285 Grange Rd and 46 Kildare Rd], Rickard [34 Godbold Rd where I was born] as well as Blackery and Tresadern families who moved into the area.

Offline Jenny Freeman

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #2 on: 27 September, 2008, 08:33:26 AM »
Sandra, I dont know if you are the Sandra who has all the records of the Gypsy family from Cherry Island.  Fry is associated with  Cindarella Lee and Sandra has all the records.  If you do a search you find heeps of info posted about Gypsy Lees.

Offline Jenny Freeman

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #3 on: 27 September, 2008, 08:43:37 AM »
Hi Sandra, just seen that you are the Sandra that already has the info on the Gypsey Lee/Fry stuff, was about to send you the info you had already sent to me !!!!

Offline Sandra

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #4 on: 27 September, 2008, 10:29:49 AM »
Thanks for the link Peter very interesting and worth looking into, but I don't think the Jesse in Greenham Common was related to the Jesse in Custom House.

My Jesse would have been 16 at the time of the stone throwing incident, so probably too old for Sunday school.  I have 'done' my Fry family right back to 1736 (they came from Malmesbury in Wilts) and he is the only Jesse in the family.

My g-g-granddad Alfred Fry was born in Malmesbury and spent most of his early life as an ag lab on the same farm the rest of his family worked on.  Between 1861 and 1865 he moved to London. He married in 1865 in St Leonards Shoreditch to Mary Ann Pennington-Phillips.

Alfred and Mary Ann had 8 children - Fanny, Alfred, John, Sarah Ann, William, Richard, Miriam and Jesse being the youngest was born in 1890. The last 7 children were born in Victoria Dock Road.

Mary Ann died in 1893 when Jesse was a toddler, Alfred remarried to Alice Stepney - nee Johnstone in 1898.  Alice Stepney was born in Newbury, she had 6 children, although at the time of marriage just the youngest two girls were living with her - Alice and Kate Stepney.

In 1891 Alfred & Alice were living in 94, Leyes Rd, Custom House, and in 1901 they were living in 20, Becton Road.

The reason I am giving all these details, is just in case anyone finds the names familiar.

Fanny Fry married John Oliver and lived at 16 Frederick Rd.
Alfred Fry married Rebecca Lee and lived at 26 Maplin Rd
John Fry married Frances St John and lived at 19, Cundy Rd
Sarah Ann Fry married Ernest Seward and live at 28 Beckton Rd
William Fry married Eliza Barnes and lived at 34 Prince Regent Lane
Richard Fry married Isabella Johnson and live at 17 Martin Rd
Miriam Fry married Robert Hood
Jesse Fry  married Daisy Meakin

Jesse's eldest brother John was in Springfield prison in the 1891 census, I have yet to find out why. His two other brothers William and Richard served time in Pentonville and being on remand in West Ham police station for the manslaughter of Benjamin Robert Bilson. I wrote about the case on the old Newham Board, I have the newspaper and Old Bailey reports.  Jesse's other brother Alfred Fry my g-granddad, married into the Lee gypsy family and took on the gypsy way of life.

So the family seemed very colourful. Richard Fry was up in front of the Old Bailey again in 1905 for violent theft and robbery, although he got away with it that time.

If anyone reading this does recognise any of the names, I would be pleased to swap note's.

Hi Jenny - yes it's me! 

Sandra

Offline Peter Marshall

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #5 on: 29 September, 2008, 01:14:55 AM »
Sandra
Do you have access to the census records at the moment?
If so, the 1901 record for Alfred and Alice Fry is worth you re-checking.  The images that I have seen for them are very fuzzy, but the relevant enumeration district description for Canning Town District 10 is much clearer. 
They were recorded at 20 Baxter Road in 1901. 

Hope you don't mind me pointing this out, but I find the whole process of people who were born in rural England moving right into the heart of the industrial docklands a fascinating one. 
Peter
Researching: Marshall [28 Carson Rd, 285 Grange Rd and 46 Kildare Rd], Rickard [34 Godbold Rd where I was born] as well as Blackery and Tresadern families who moved into the area.

Offline Sandra

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #6 on: 29 September, 2008, 02:01:01 PM »
Hi Peter

Your absolutely right, it is Baxter Rd, that's exactly what I have down on my tree, I must have put the wrong road down as I was flicking from one page to another when I was typing up the info yesterday.

I know what you mean about the migration into London. My Fry's seemed perfectly happy in their little village called Charlton just outside Malmesbury. They used the same church for centuries, worked on the same farms and married the girl/boy next door. 

Then suddenly Alfred uppped sticks and moved to London, to Shoreditch where he met a girl from Kings Cross. On their marriage cert, his occupation was a Slate Cutter. Very strange as he was just an ag lab in Malmesbury, and I don't think there were any slate mines in Shoreditch!

A couple of years later when my g-granddad was born they were living in the Victoria Dock Road and Alfred's occupation was 'Pickler in Docks'  have been trying to find out what a 'Pickler' is for the past 6 years!

The rest of the Fry family stayed in Malmesbury, I still have rellies/cousins a lot removed living there now.

I have got 2 lines on my Dad's side who were shipwrights, and came to live in Limehouse from Plymouth in Devon during the Napoleonic Wars. I have also got a shipwright/ships carpenter who came up from Southampton about the same time (1801) to live in Poplar/Limehouse, and work on the ships being built in the 'new' Poplar Docks.

I have 4 lines on Mum's side who came from various parts of Essex (Weeley, Little Braxted, Leigh, Colchester) they all came down to work in service in London, all ending up getting married and living in Canning Town/Plaistow/Custom House to work in the factories spring up along the banks of the Thames.

Then from the mid 1970's all my family was getting out of London, including us who moved to Hampshire.  I have only a few aunts, uncles and cousins living in Newham now.  The weird thing is 150 years on, some of my uncles and aunts moved out to Essex, to the Weeley/Clacton area where my family first 'escaped' to London from!

Sandra

Offline Peter Marshall

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #7 on: 29 September, 2008, 06:52:21 PM »
Sandra
Here is a suggestion for you on your Alfred Fry's occupation as a 'Pickler in Docks'.  It took me straight back to the time when I worked for a while as a sand cast maker in an iron foundry.  It was only a few weeks, and I hated the job so I took an interest in everything else going on under the same roof.  Every now and then, there was a steel casting that was too delicate for 'sand blasting' clean [with the metal ball bearings that were now used].   It would be dipped for a while in the 'pickling bath' full of acid.  This would clean off all of the casting scale and gunge from the object.  Sometimes, something had been left out in the works' yard too long before being sent to the customer and was covered in rust.  The pickling bath would soon pretty that up! 

Another use for acid pickling that I have come across was for surface cleaning metals before galvanising or electro-plating them.  Sometimes copper plating was [and still is] used to give some protection from salt corrosion of the exposed ends of nails or bolts that were used to hold together the wooden upper structures of small boats.   

Think of the effect a splash of vinegar has in making a window squeaky clean when you 'finish' it with a screwed up bit of newspaper - like we were taught as children. 

So, perhaps Alfred Fry was employed with a ship repairer in the docks area, removing marine corrosion from metallic parts.  I seem to recall that propellors, being generally made at that time of brass and fragile, needed dipping to remove corrosion and by smoothing them, so increase their efficiency.  Rigging blocks and tackle were similarly renovated. 

So, my best suggestion is that your Alfred was involved as a worker in the supply or restoration of parts for shipbuilding or ship repair.  In this way he would have been playing his part in speeding the flow of goods and passengers in and out of London. 

Hope this helps a bit.
Peter

 

A historical dictionary gives one definition of a 'pickle' as 'An acid solution used for cleansing metal or wood, or for other purposes', with the word first used that way in 1776  [Oxford English Dictionary (1933), p1497]. 



Researching: Marshall [28 Carson Rd, 285 Grange Rd and 46 Kildare Rd], Rickard [34 Godbold Rd where I was born] as well as Blackery and Tresadern families who moved into the area.

Offline Sandra

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #8 on: 30 September, 2008, 01:59:59 PM »
Thank you so much Peter for solving the 'Pickler' mystery for me. I hope you don't mind, but I have printed out your post and added it to Alfreds info on my family tree.

Sandra

Offline Peter Marshall

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #9 on: 02 October, 2008, 02:00:34 AM »
Happy to be able to help in some way. 
Glad you found it interesting.
Peter
Researching: Marshall [28 Carson Rd, 285 Grange Rd and 46 Kildare Rd], Rickard [34 Godbold Rd where I was born] as well as Blackery and Tresadern families who moved into the area.

Offline jplant1

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #10 on: 29 October, 2008, 07:32:47 AM »
Somewhat belated respose, but have you tried the archivists at the London Hospital?

http://www.bartsandthelondon.nhs.uk/aboutus/royallondonhospitalmuseum.asp

I saw some of their photographic material in the Jack the Ripper exhibition in the Museum in Docklands on Monday.

Offline Sandra

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #11 on: 30 October, 2008, 10:21:12 AM »
Thanks for the link - very interesting, I'll give it a go.

Sandra

Offline carolinefry1980

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #12 on: 21 March, 2016, 04:10:52 AM »
Hello Sandra, I've just come across this thread and had to reply!

My Great Grandfather is Richard Fry. He remarried in 1945 to Annie Florence Chapman (my Great Grandmother)

Richard & Annie Fry had 8 children:

George Alfred Fry
Elizabeth Annie Chapman
Doris Emma Chapman
Richard Henry Chapman
Annie Rosina Fry
Henry Edward Fry (my Grandfather)
Lilian D Fry
Frances Fry


Caroline

Offline Sandra

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #13 on: 21 March, 2016, 03:06:17 PM »
Hello Caroline that makes us 2nd cousins!  :D

Your great-granddad was certainly a character wasn’t he.
I have all the court records from the Old Bailey from when he and his brother William killed that bloke on his wedding night when he married Isabella in 1899. And also when he committed robbery at Victoria Dock gates in 1905.

I have Richard having 9 children with Isabella. The 9 children were born between the years 1899 and 1919.
Richard 16th Sept 1899 – 1899
Richard 23rd Dec 1901 – 1902
William Henry (known as Harry) 1902 – 1903
Henry Andrew 5th Aug 1905 – 1906
Isabella Ethel A Fry 1907 -
John Henry Robert 20th May 1909 – 1909
Alfred Andrew 16th Oct 1910 – 1911
Annie Harriett 26th Nov 1915 –1989
Emma Jane Mary 26th July 1919 -

I also have him having 9 children with Annie Florence.... (Who was Richard & Isabella’s 19 year old lodger in the 1911 census.)
George Alfred 10th Oct 1911 – 15th Jan 1975
Elizabeth Ann 13th Dec 1913 -
Frances 15th July 1915 -
Amy Florence 13th Feb 1917 -
Richard Henry 20th Sept 1919 -
William 1922 -
Annie Rosina 19th Aug 1923 -
Henry Edward (Harry) 5th Aug 1925 – 1990
Lillian Dorothy 1928

Richard & Annie’s children were born between 1911 and 1928
so he was having children with both women for a time. The reason I know this is because I have the children’s baptism’s with the date, parents etc.

I haven’t really gone into the family in much detail, I have yet to find all the marriages, deaths etc, as I have been concentrating on other lines in my tree. I really must get back into the fry line and see what else I can find.

Isabella died in 1938 and he married Annie in 1945.

Does our info match?

best wishes

Sandra

Offline carolinefry1980

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Re: Where do I look next?
« Reply #14 on: 21 March, 2016, 07:48:26 PM »
This is amazing! I can't believe I have come across a long lost relative!

The info you have is pretty much identical to what I have.


My grandfather Henry Edward Fry (Harry) passed away on the 25th October 1986.

My granddad's sister Annie Rosina passed away in 1956. Now the reason I know this is because my granddad gave his daughter the middle name Ann in remembrance.

My dad Dennis Edward Fry passed away on the 7th June 2011.



Caroline